Lalaji and Sahaj marg.

By looking at the absurd statements made by Parthasarthi Rajagopalachari regarding lalaji and his group, we decided to investigate this claim of Shree RamChandra Mission run by Chari & company, we were astonished when we came to know that Parthasarthi Rajagopalachari lie's about Lalaji and makes up stories about RamChandra of fathegarh alias lalaji, which were in absolute contradiction to the character of lalaji, we discussed and referred to some more groups and organizations which were established by lalali himself and we finally came to conclusion that parthasarthi rajagopalchari has made up all the stories about lalaji and used those stories to manipulate and fool people all in name of spirituality.

This post contains discussion our from orkut community freedom from SRCM-Sahaj Marg Discussion can be found under topic Lalaji

After our investigation and discussion, we came to this conclusion that lalaji was never associated with Sahaj marg, he had his own method, which is taken care of by santmat of fathegarh, and another organization in mathura, Chari's claim that lalaji is a master in the linage of sahaj marg is a bogus claim, exactly similar to their claim that sahaj marg is modified version of raja yoga.



Here is the statement from Chari which instigated us to get to the roots of Lalaji's association with Chari's Sahaj marg.

http://www.srcm.org/literature/recent.speeches/070202_Tiruppur.jsp

Lalaji Maharaj, whose birth anniversary we are celebrating today has ordained–it was not merely an expression of his wishes–has ordained that abhyasis should marry amongst each other, so that in two or three generations we have an exploding Sahaj Marg population.

Go through the discussion and feel free to add your comments.

Orkut Discussion:-

Shashwat

SRCM claims that lalaji is the founder of the system of sahaj marg, not only this, our funny joker P. Rajagopalachari also claims that lalaji has ordered that members of his cult must marry each other.


If we try to find out the roots of the problem we are facing today (i.e sahaj marg), we may end-up finding various version of lalaji and his theory of transmission, Chari's gang claims that Lalaji re-discovered Raja Yoga, here is what they claim in their website:-

He rediscovered and refined the ancient raja yoga method of pranahuti, whereby divine energy is transmitted by the Master into the heart of the aspirant in order to expedite his or her spiritual development

Now there is something also called as Raja Yoga system of "Pranahuti", this is not patanjali's Raja Yoga but raja yoga of "Pranahuti" and it is ancient as well, the same group also claims that same system is modified version of Patanjali's Raja Yoga wherein they start from the last stage of patanjali's raja yoga, these hopeless attempt to present sahaj marg as modified version of raja yoga speaks volumes about true nature of this system.

Sahaj Marg has got nothing to do with raja yoga, it is simply a product of hallucination on part of Babuji, and Chari has simply made it worst.

Lalaji on other hand seems to be a follower of Islam, we have three groups currently which claims exclusive successor-ship from Lalaji, they are:-

1. Ramashram satsang

2. Santmat

3. SRCM

There are few more, but they do not claim exclusive ownership of Lalaji, we are aware of Lalaji's family linage, and they are also into this business of selling divinity.

All these group present a different picture of Lalaji and color Lalaji according to their own vision and do not present the true picture. We need to know and understand few things here they are:-

1. What has caused sahaj marg to come into existence!

2. Why and how sahaj marg turned out to be a worst kind of brainwashing cult!

3. Is there anything spiritual in sahaj marg? if yes what?

4. How come Lalaji is involved in something of this nature which is hell bent in destroying the foundations of our society?

5. Why sahaj marg breaks family?

6. Why and how sahaj marg makes its followers week and cowards?


We need to find out answers to these questions and i intend to start a discussion on these 6 topic in our forum, so that all those who are reading our forum may get a glimpse of what is sahaj marg in relaity?

I intend to start with Lalaji, and i will take 3 references for the same, to start with we will analyze the Ramashram satsang version of Lalaji's history, here is their link:-

http: //spiritual-meditation. org/background. htm

They say:-

Rev. Lala ji Maharaj was formally initiated by his Master into the Spiritual Transmission system of Meditation on 23 January 1896 and was finally proclaimed a great saint and spiritual Master on 11 October 1896 in a large convention of saints and advanced devotees. After the demise of his spiritual Master, Rev. La1aji Maharaj took up the mission of spreading the Spiritual Transmission linked Meditation system to the needy aspirants in a big way from 1911 upto Aug.14, 1931 when he merged into supreme consciousness for ever. His most beloved disciple Rev. Dr. Srikrishan LaUi Maharaj was proclaimed as saint vested with full spiritual powers by Rev. Lala ji Maharaj in his life time itself, who continued the mission of his Master from 1931 onwards from his Ramashram located at Sikandarabad (UP.)

Another version of Lalaji is available here:-

http: //astrologerjolly. tripod. com/ramashram. htm


When Mahatma Ji was eighteen, he came in contact with a great Sufi Master, Maulana Fazal Ahmed Khan Saheb. Khan Saheb was totally above the preposterous idea of man-man divide in the name of religion. "Khuda mazhab mein nahin, muhabbat mein hai" (God is not in religions, He is in love) was his fundamental belief. He was a siddha, an enlightened master. His followers included people from all faiths. He found in Mahatma Ji an able soul who could further his mission to awake general masses to devote themselves to the path of God.

Like his master, Mahatma Ji was a great humanitarian. He lived a simple life. Many of his disciples carried his mission of spreading the light of truth. A number of such organisations are today working pronouncing that the wisdom of sages are meant for the common people and boundaries dividing the mankind are only man made.

Thakur Saheb Shri Ram Singh Ji was a Sant in the lineage of Sufism and Santmat in India. A great generous and reformist Sufi mystic, Maulana Fazal Ahemad Khan Saheb chose to bestow his grace on his able desciple belonging to Hindu faith, Mahatma Shri Ram Chandra Ji Maharaj (Lala Ji). Thakur Saheb was one of the great disciples of Mahatma Shri Ram Chandra Ji Maharaj.

This is another linage of Lalaji.

nd finally the version of Lalaji presented by Chari's gang:-

http: //www. sahajmarg. org/welcome/masters/lalaji. html

His personality, mode of living and general behaviour earned Lalaji the respect and affection of his neighbours. He was much loved by Hindus and Muslims alike, and though he loved his followers with all their faults, he was also a strict disciplinarian. In contrast to the practices of his time, he was very much against rituals and idol worship and in favour of the remarriage of widows as well as the education of women.

Display of any kind was repugnant to Lalaji, and he advised aspirants to stay away from powers until they reached their goal and discipline was perfected. He felt that every aspirant needed a spiritual Master, and that great care should be taken in selecting one. His doors were open to all, and he would frequently transmit to his followers until 2 o’clock in the morning. He regarded morality as essential to
Self-realisation and love as the greatest spiritual practice.

On August 14, 1931, Lalaji passed away, leaving Babuji to continue his work for the upliftment of humankind.


From these 3 version of Lalaji, at max only one of these can be true, which in turn means, two of these groups are liars and are fake, manipulating people and fooling them in name of someone who died long back !!!

We need to analyze these 3 groups to start with our quest to find the roots of our problem which is sahaj marg.

I hope we will have some good discussion about this topic and can come to a conclusion.

All the 3 groups in question claim that Lalaji left his most beloved disciple to carry forward his work, first one is

1. His most beloved disciple Rev. Dr. Srikrishan LaUi Maharaj was proclaimed as saint vested with full spiritual powers by Rev. Lala ji Maharaj in his life time itself, who continued the mission of his Master from 1931 onwards from his Ramashram located at Sikandarabad (UP.)
http: //spiritual-meditation. org/background. Htm

2. Maulana Fazal Ahemad Khan Saheb chose to bestow his grace on his able desciple belonging to Hindu faith, Mahatma Shri Ram Chandra Ji Maharaj (Lala Ji). Thakur Saheb was one of the great disciples of Mahatma Shri Ram Chandra Ji Maharaj.
http: //astrologerjolly. tripod. com/ramashram. htm

and

3. On August 14, 1931, Lalaji passed away, leaving Babuji to continue his work for the upliftment of humankind.
http: //www. sahajmarg. org/welcome/masters/lalaji. html



They all cannot be true at the same time, only one of these groups is honest and a genuine one, question we need to answer is which one?

cyril

Shashwat:
You say:

Lalaji on other hand seems to be a follower of Islam, we have three groups currently which claims exclusive successor-ship from Lalaji, they are:-
1. Ramashram satsang
2. Santmat
3. SRCM
Of the three groups you mentionned, which group is SANTMAT? What is SANTMAT? The use of Shabda, as in SOUND or a MANTRA? You don't mention SANTMAT in any other group.
You also say: "Lalaji seems to be a follower of Islam". You will note that in the "golden chain" on Lalaji's family site: NaqshMuMRa Nexus, the Prophet Mahummad has been removed by Dr Chandra Gupta, to whom the Sufi Saints and Sufism site of Dr. PK Gupta: http://www.geocities.com/sufisaints/ and the words: "my master, my GOd" have been inserted.
http://laalaajinilayam.googlepages.com/goldenchain
Also...
If you want input from everyone, such as myself, let us keep words of "insult" such as "cowards", or "weak", "liars", "fake", "frauds", "zombies", "brainwashed", "cults", etc... out of this "LOGICAL" discussion (debate). Those are "subjective" and merely Points of View (POV) ...
It does not encourage an "intellectual" debate but lowers the tolerance level to "emotionalism", and all its many veils of many colours. Emotionalism does not reveal the true colour of REALITY and/or TRUTH that would be closer to WHITE LIGHT ... or a LIGHT or thought of very high FREQUENCY... If we can't see the WHITE light in others, then let them colour their own REALITY with their "colours" and we can simply REVEAL or EXPOSE them by "quoting" them, not creating and inventing new words of "PUT-DOWN".
Thanks for understanding ...
Cyril borg...

Shashwat

I am not sure about surat shabd and its association with Santmat, what i am referring to is the concept postulated about santmat by ramashram satsang, here is what they claim:-
Thakur Saheb Shri Ram Singh Ji was a Sant in the lineage of Sufism and Santmat in India. A great generous and reformist Sufi mystic, Maulana Fazal Ahemad Khan Saheb chose to bestow his grace on his able desciple belonging to Hindu faith, Mahatma Shri Ram Chandra Ji Maharaj (Lala Ji). Thakur Saheb was one of the great disciples of Mahatma Shri Ram Chandra Ji Maharaj.
http://www.jollycreations. com/spiritual. asp
About using the terms which are truth, but difficult to digest, its my responsibility because i am making those statement, and i am ready to take my words back, IF ANYONE CAN PROVE THEM TO BE WRONG!!
Comfort is no test for truth, on the contrary truth is often far from being comfortable..... SV
I will not hesitate to speak the truth, i will speak what i believe is truth, if my view is proven wrong, i will not hesitate to take my words back, and tender an apology, but for this to happen, someone must come forward and prove me wrong..
I will wait for some more time, so that we can get input from some more user's having information about Lalaji, we will wind up this discussion soon.

jogarao

The simplicity with which Lalaji and Babuji propagated this system of pranahuthi aided Raja yoga meditation to the universal community who crave for ultimate goal of self realisation has itself became the veil covering the ultimate reality. it is unfortunate that the gullible followers allowed some vested interests to exploit them for selfish gains and thereby lost precious time. there is no point to brood over the past but treat them with negligence they deserve as otherwise they may play havock on all concerned.

The best solution to this problem is to continue our practice without bothering about the obstacles in the form of these individuals, and as assured by The Adi guru and Founder of this system the restless craving and helpless cry of a sincere abhyasi makes the Eternal Master who is one with the Ultimate certainly comes to the rescue of the true followers and punish those who violate their guidlines with a severe punishment they deserve most.

It is in the interest of our own progress we should not deviate from the chosen path of becoming one with the Master who merged in toto with the Ultimate to guide the Humanity at large to reach the main goal of Human life that is to become one with the special personality who came down to this world to lead us all to that goal.All we need to do now is to keep that goal in our mind and remain attached only to Him and none else.

cyril

Hi Jogarao...

Welcome to the discussion...

You say: "...who crave for ultimate goal of self realisation has itself became the veil covering the ultimate reality."

Do you think that "self-realization" can cover the ULTIMATE REALITY? Does not "self-realization" mean that one realizes the TRUE self, not a copy or a "fake" version of the SELF... unless you mean a "fake" version of "self-realization", that is not a 'realization" of the self at all, but of an "illusion"...

Who is it that "covers the Ultimate REALITY with "self-realization"?

You say: " ... reach the main goal of Human life that is to become one with the special personality who came down to this world to lead us all to that goal"

Does Lalaji mention a "special personality"? Who beside Babuji mentions a "special personality"? Should there not be a lot of others who mention such a PERSON?

Where do you find that Babuji is the SPECIAL PERSONALITY beside in SAHAJ MARG?
Babuji never said he was "the SPECIAL PERSONALITY"... The only ones who I heard it said is from Chari... Do you know of anyone else?

Do anyone in the RAMASHRAM of Lalaji think that Sahaj Marg is now the ONLY PATH as Babuji stated in his letter of 1963 that is on the "Naqshbandiyya Nexus" site of the Lalaji Family (Dinesh, the Dean of the Naqshbandiyya Order "NaqshMuMRa". Dinesh is #39 and Lalaji is #36. Babuji is not on their GOLDEN chain and was never a Preceptor of Lalaji's group and only met him a few times.

Thanks for you comments and replies to this query..

Cyril Borg...

jogarao

Hi Cyril,
It is very nice of you to comment on my post.
When I stated that the simplicity with which Lalaji and Babuji propagated the system that simplicity itself made people think that it is very difficult to follow the system because most of us think in complications instead of simple thinking.This simplicity has been misunderstood due to our limited thinking that it is very difficult to realise self.where as Lalaji and Babuji proved beyond doubt that any complicated thinking diverts his/her attention from the main goal because simplicity is also subtle and sensitive and slightest deviation is enough for a down fall.

The no of books written by Babuji such as Reality at Dawn, Efficacy of Rajyog in the light of ahajmarg Commentary on Ten commandments ,Towards Infinity etc.. besides his auto biography in three volumes published by the shahjahanpur centre reveals many aspects of this sadhana and one can understand the system in right perspective.

It is our misfortune that we have with us a very few direct followers who too lead the same kind of simple life and leave the rest to destiny because nature will take its own time to settle scores for it is tolerent enough to wait and we too are required to be like that if we want that ultimate which is beyond explanation but which can be experienced alone.The practice is purely individualistic in the sense that our experiences differ due to our individual past but mind you we are all going to reach the final goal if we do not deviate and depend on Him alone who only can take us there.

But if we continue our practice as laid down by Babuji since he brought this system into this world by the grace of His Master Lalaji Maharaj, no force on earth prevent us to reach that goal. Babuji in his auto biography mentioned about that special personality but never claimed himself as that personality. The abhyasis around him by their individual experiences realised his real person and got benefitted by His direct instructions.

cyril

Hi Jogarao...

Thank you for your replies...

I can see (read) that you are a good person (male/female?) and that the teachings of Babuji have remained a source of good in your life. I have noticed that in other groups also, such as the ISRC of Narayana, specially his father, Dr. Varadachari, and even in some of the leaderless schisms in Europe who still meet in small groups and do not join in with the Chari faction.

I believe that the Chari Group (SRCM(California) is the PROBLEM in all our lives and for the SRCM in general. I am sure that Chari thinks that after he is gone, his successor will attempt at "ecumenism" as the Catholic Church has tried for centuries without much success. The Divisions have remained.

I agree with you that it is unfortunate that a person who is not properly trained in "spirituality" is now leading the SRCM (California), and hence has created so many divisions in the families of the disciples who's mates can't accept this "star" syndrome that has to follow such "bad teaching". Poor Babuji! Wether there is "punishment" on this Earth, for the divisions of PEOPLE to the level of "trade-mark" and violence is yet to be seen. Hence many "seekers" believe in another life or many other lives to balance our actions, believing that the ONE is JUST, and that in ITS Creation, there should also be JUSTICE. That is a belief and not a FACT, or a TRUTH, and is yet to be seen (by me) or confirmed (shown or proven) by others.

I pray that when I see the POOR, or the SICK and the VICTIMS, I don't just turn my back and say: "You are just paying for past deeds". But I hope that I and all will continue to be guided by compassion and Charity and lend a hand as much as I can, if only in my words and thoughts, and hopes and prayers.

I Bless you and yours...

Cyril Borg

jogarao

Hi Cyril,
I would like to clarify further as follows:
There is every possibility to mistake one who feels that he realized self since in such a state as declared by Babuji himself one forgets self completely and if anyone declares himself that he realized self then it is false claim altogether. No one so far , even among the loyal followers of Babuji declared that he realized self or ultimate but simply say I don't Know since he forgets himself completely and remains in the remembrance of HIS mASTER WHO AGAIN TOTALLY MERGED HIMSELF INTO ULTIMATE REALITY and beyond.It is up to us only to use our discrimination and decide whether that person who declares himself as Master really deserves our attention or not. Another thing is we too experience such forgetful condition when we are near such realized personalities and that is the real proof about their condition.
We have come across such realized souls in persons like Late Raghavendra rao of raichur and experienced that condition though for a short while. It has been verified with other abhyasis and confirmed by self. They remind us the presence of such special personality though they never claim as such but we can deduce it by our personal experience.
We normally look at things or persons and form our opinion according to our impressions and past experience. Unfortunately if we fall into the hands of such imposters we too will be carried away by their false images till we come accross spiritually elevated personalities and there by get rid of those false impressions.Let us wait for such a moment patiently without losing heart but with positive expectation. Just understand that unless we are aware of pain we can not experience pleasure and unless we are aware of evil tendencies we can not experience relief from them.All these words are out of my own experience and I have not been prompted by any external agency.
I pray Master to bestow us with such experiences so that we may not deviate from the chosen path and reach our destination.

cyril

Hi Jogarao...

You say:"... HIS mASTER WHO AGAIN TOTALLY MERGED HIMSELF INTO ULTIMATE REALITY and beyond"

Is there such a "beyond" the Ultimate reality? Does not the word: ULTIMATE mean that nothing is "beyond" or "more ULTIMATE" than IT?

You say: "It is up to us only to use our discrimination and decide whether that person who declares himself as Master really deserves our attention or not. Another thing is we too experience such forgetful condition when we are near such realized personalities and that is the real proof about their condition."

How can one use "discrimination", without using the "brain" and not simply being "obedient" as the GURU culture demands? It seems that one has to "not be obedient" and ready to use the BRAIN, and not the Heart, which is the body's pump for blood, before one can truly "discriminate".

Then if one is in a "forgetful condition" when in the proximity of such "realized personalities", then one can't discriminate about them at all... One has to be able to "remember" so as to formulate a "thought" of any depth, that is not driven simply by a "emotional desire" or bodily "need" or necessity.

I don't doubt your experience but by what you say, it is very "subjective" and you seem to have "accepted" Mr Roa as your Master so you have a different experience of him than I, who have only read some of his material on the blog of his disciples. I have to discriminate from his "intellect", logic, words, etc... as I am not in his presence and can't experience his "energy". I will simply take your word for Mr. Rao's spirituality or psychic energy level.

Thank you for sharing your experience....

Cyril Borg

Shashwat

Dear jogarao,

Welcome to our orkut web-community, incorporated to exchange free and independent views about sahaj marg in general and shree ram chandra mission (california based) in specific.

it is imperative to know what are the views of some of the main contributors here, as it will give a fair bit of idea of what we are discussing.

You have stated The simplicity with which Lalaji and Babuji propagated this system of pranahuthi aided Raja yoga meditation

Probably you missed to get the essence of the topic we are discussing here, we are trying to come to a logical conclusion for the statement made in SRCM (california) website that lalaji appointed babuji as his representative.

We do not have much idea about functioning of lalaji and his acts, because there are various contradictory statements made by numerous groups claiming linage from lalaji, all of them however say that lalaji discovered the "pranahuti" some call it transmission, some call it transmission linked meditation and some call it a sufi practice, most strangely Chari's group call it "modified version of raja yoga".

Nomenclature of lalaji's concept is not the topic of discussion, but did Lalaji appointed babuji as his representative is the question here.

All the groups associated with sahaj marg of Ramchandra (Babuji) sing in single voice that babuji had a dream in 1945, in which he was asked by lalaji to start sahaj marg.

We doubt the validity of this claim. It is perfectly OK to have a dream and register sahaj marg based on that dream, but illusion must not be presented as fact, a dream is a dream.... we all have dreams everyday and many of us, follow our dreams as well, but we make clear distinction in between a dream and reality (of the senses we live in). Making a claim which is out of this world MUST be stated as such.

Illusion should be clearly stated as illusion and any attempt to present illusion as reality for mass consumption is a dis-honest approach.

jogarao

Dear Brothers,
I think I must make my point more clear. Babuji never claimed that he was appointed as the representative of Lalaji , rather he quoted Lalaji as His Master and the transmission comes directly from Lalaji alone. What happened later was In memory of His Master he founded Ramchandra mission and he was the founder president to carry on the work entrusted to him by Lalaji. Babuji preferred himself to be treated as servant to all abhyasis and used to appeal to take his service for their progress. He treated every abhyasi as his brother and expected similar response but never claimed as master.If anybody happen to read his biography he used to eagerly await abhyasis to 'try' the practice at least for three months and continue only if found satisfied.So far as my understanding goes Transmission comes from the ultmate source if the tranmitter is tuned up totally with the source and any deviation from it will have adverse effects on the receiver.
Babuji himself advised all abhyasis to follow His Master and never talked about his Master hood.It is the abhyasis who treated as such in the physical absence of Lalaji. Even myself, I never treated any one as Master but sincerely followed senior brothers who clarified most of my doubts about this system and only after I was satisfied I took this practise seriously but I must admit that I still feel that I am a new entrant even today. That is the freshness of this dynamic system.
Bro.Raghavendra Rao suggested that one should try to adhere oneself to the ten commandments and the rest follows automatically. we need to analyze our daily routine life and correct ourselves without any external support and judge our progress by ourselves which will come to our cognizance once we cross that stage and thus we ourselves can understand where we stand in our sadhana.
more in my next post

Shashwat

"Babuji never claimed that he was appointed as the representative of Lalaji"

Well this is a contradictory statement from what is made publicly by Chari clan, here is what they have stated in their website:-

On August 14, 1931, Lalaji passed away, leaving Babuji to continue his work for the upliftment of humankind.

and


On June 3, 1922, Babuji first met his Master (Lalaji), a man with the same name as himself, who lived in the town of Fatehgarh not far from Shahjahanpur. Lalaji recognized Babuji as the man who had appeared to him in a dream years before, the one who was destined to succeed him as the leader of a great spiritual renaissance.

This is very strange when we have similar claims like the one i have posted in first post

"His most beloved disciple Rev. Dr. Srikrishan LaUi Maharaj was proclaimed as saint vested with full spiritual powers by Rev. Lala ji Maharaj in his life time itself, who continued the mission of his Master from 1931 onwards from his Ramashram located at Sikandarabad (UP.)"

Now why should one claim be accepted and other rejected? because at max only one of these claims can be true!! so who is the impostor here???

If we analysis both the claims, one states that lalaji appointed Dr. Srikrishan LaUi Maharaj as his representative during his lifetime, and other claims that in the very first meeting lalaji appointed babuji as his representative, but babuji got the dream 13 years after lalaji's death..

Dr. Srikrishan LaUi Maharaj's claims seems more logical and real, we can go on a live in our dreams and each and everyone of us can claim to have certain dream and go on fighting court battles based on our dreams.... this is exactly what is happening in sahaj marg today!

Well is this spiritual? I doubt it.

Hence we can attempt to study method of babuji independently and isolating it from any association from lalaji. This approach will be more logical and we can come to an agreement if we decide to accept the glaring reality in front of us.

Lalaji did not appointed Babuji as his successor, it was simply an illusion on part of babuji to claim that he is propagating lalaji's teaching exclusively.

If lalaji had appointed someone else what is the need for him to appear in dream of babuji and make statement which would contradict his real life acts??

At this point i do not wish to discuss validity of sahaj marg as a system, we will come to it in some time, but as of now, we need to close this discussion (after reaching a conclusion) that lalaji as he is known to the world has got nothing to do with the practice of sahaj marg.

There is no harm in giving credit of sahja marg to lalaji, but it must be stated that it is a claim which cannot be proved and cannot be accepted in any discussion. This fact is important to be exposed because Chari makes absurd statements based on this assumption like "it is an order from lalaji that abhyasis should marry each other".

How can lalaji order such a thing when he was not at all related to concept of sahaj marg itself?

A story from mahabharat is quite valid here, the story of Eklavya, who practiced archery by making an idol of Dronacharya, there is nothing wrong, but his objectives were quite clear, story also marks a clear distinction between reality and illusion, Eklavya paid a heavy price for his illusion, by loosing all that he gained by his own effort but crediting it to his imagination.



This is what has happened. Lalaji in all probability was unaware of any such person named Ramchandra of Shahjahanpur. Lalaji being a spiritual person and associated with a particular school of thought (Sufism) must be meeting with thousands of people. Babuji was just one of them.


What about honesty?

jogarao

Dear Brothers,

Babuji by his example has shown how a devoted abhyasi has to behave and exhorted others to taste the nectar of spiritual growth by by emulating his example and used to declare that he takes poison but give nectar instead when questioned about his Hukka smoking habit. I wondered why such an elevated personality got addicted to Hukka. Later I learnt that it was to bring him down to amidst us since most of the time he was in that super conscious state making him totally silent and practically living dead condition.His endless struggle to spread the message of his master to pining masses made him ignorant of the fact that promoting chari as general secretary will help him to spread His Master's message to west and Europe and that was the beginning of chari's getting prominence among other abhyasis.

Babuji never suspected that his own follower by way of his misdeeds bring down the glorious image of this Mission with the same speed with which he established his own regime taking advantage of the physical absence of both the personalities and silent following of gullible abhyasis.

But nature will take its own course to set the matters right and now the result is obvious.The need of the hour is to wake up all those who are still under the spell of chari and invite them with open heart to get back to the serious sadhana brushing away the past and hope for a better future.

There is no point in brooding over the ugly past but our attention should be on the present to prevent further deterioration in future. Every earnest seeker of spirituality is expected to keep vigilant always to avoid exploitation by vested interests.God is great and I am sure that his benevolent grace will be showered on all those who are true, honest and sincere followers of spiritual path and weed out the unwanted with due punishment.Our attention should be on the process for progress but not on individuals since the thought itself separates us from our main goal of life.

Shashwat

We are not denying the possibility that babuji might have experienced something supernatural, we are yet to discuss and come to a conclusion about it, but in my opinion what is pretty clear by now, is lalaji was babuji's guru in similar manner as Dronacharya was Eklavya's guru "imaginary".

Now if babuji has credited all his achievements to lalaji, that's his view, and should be accept like that only, "In babuji's view, lalaji was his guru" but lalaji in reality appointed someone else as his representative.

By accepting this fact we are not diminishing acts of babuji, all we are doing is making the air more clear. Lalaji's association with sahaj marg is hypothetical, and hence claims made by chari like "Order from lalaji that abhyasis should marry each other" should be thrown in the dustbin, and he must be prosecuted for making such an statement which is an absolute insult to our common sense.

Stupidity is not spirituality. there has to be some trace of logic behind enlightenment, a person making claims that he is talking to ghosts is best referred to as a madman, and not an enlighten person, selling messages from ghosts claiming that these messages are from brighter world is "rape of intelligence". Why would a person like babuji hate his own children? why would babuji send messages from brighter world to those people who have brutally exploited female members of babuji's family?

We are humans because we can think, and it has been proven by the history and various religions that to reach God, we must be human first, and this is the logic behind various "Avtar's" of Lord Vishnu.

If we drop our intelligence, if we drop our thinking capacity, if we drop our logic, how are we different from an obedient dog? even dogs can think rationally, if their master orders him to jump in fire, he won't as he understands that such an act will cause him harm, if you beat your pet, he will try to save himself.

We need to be human to be enlighten. and to be human we have no other option but to think.

cyril

It seems that those who follow Babuji and now Chari do not want to address the claim that Lalaji was used to give credibility to Babuji' s Mission. He could have joined the "representative" of Lalaji if he wanted to "serve" and be "obedient" to Lalaji. It seems to show a lack of respect for Lalaji that he simply formed his own group and place Lalaji as the "Master" and "inventor" of his system. To say that Lalaji "inspired" him is correct but from there the claims of "successorship" are a little "stretched".

I have many wise persons who have inspired me in my life, but I don't claim that they are responsible for the systems I create in the future. And if I was to follow their teachings and their METHOD, I would learn from his "stated" successor and representative and not present myself as a "successor" or a "representative" of my MASTER from a "dream" message... That is also a stretch..

The "that's the past" claim is what all autocrats and their "disciples" want to scream, but the past is still being "proselytized" by Chari and his gang, as if it is still the TRUTH and that they are part of LALAJI's Lineage... So it is not the "PAST" but it is the PRESENT that we can FIX... IT is the only thing we can FIX.

What Babuji did was his business, and his spirituality is his affair with the ONE ... If any want to follow Babuji, that is one thing... If they claim Lalaji as their LINEAGE, that seems to be a LIE as Lalaji has a ligitimate lineage with documents to prove it. Sahaj Marg and SRCM do not have such documentation...

I pray that all adherents to Sahaj marg have not fallen into "forgetfulness" and hence have given up the ability to be "discriminating" and logical. That Brain is also a GIFT from the ONE that we did not deserve but is ours by GRACE.

Let us use our GIFT of THINKING, without FEAR!!

Cyril Borg...

jogarao

Dear Brothers,
It is clear to me now that your opinion of sahajmarg was entirely on the basis of your experience in chari group. I only wonder how was it possible for you to bear this agony and harassment for such a long time?
My experience was no doubt chari could create a good impression on people in the beginning but seekers with real craving for spiritual experience will immediately get averse from such situations and people and as far as my personal experience I too got attracted to his person after reading his book titled My Master but after meeting him in person i did not feel anything and never tried to meet him again.
What I am trying to state is that you will normally guided by your impressions to form opinions but you can change them according to your experience till you develop discrimination to avoid unpleasant situations and people so that we will not be effected in any ways.
I feel that just like a hungry man we search for spiritual solution and some times land up with some smart fellow who hoodwinks us into his trap and before we realise we fall a prey to his tricks.it is not his greatness but our foolishness to accept such fellows as Gurus, Masters, Or guides. We need to thoroughly cross check his credentials before we submit ourselves just like inquiry about a Doctor before consultation.
Before I started this practice I had to search for a true guide for 25 years and try more than ten different systems.Only after I was fully satisfied that this is the most suitable procedure when compared to other practices and thoroughly satisfied myself about this system I developed faith and confidence in Babuji's system.

cyril

Hi Jogarao...

I too believe in "meditation" and in "prayer" and can plainly see that they are not the "property" of any person even Babuji who was never my Master but a "friend" as you are on my JOURNEY...

This being said, I live in constant "contact" with the ONE and the SPIRIT in IT'S Creation and hence I don't have to "remember" constantly any one PERSON, Personality, Image, SOUND, but can live in the MOMENT with the SPIRIT that is ALWAYS THERE where I live...

However, since the "manipulators" came to my "PERFECT UNIVERSE", I must deal with them and shine the LIGHT of REASON on the experience they had on my "partner"( another friend) and could have on my friends, family, society, UNIVERSE, etc...

I then leave My one(me) in ONE, and my one (I) in ALL all the time and in all the SPACE of MULTI-dimensions and deal with "SHINING THE LIGHT of REASON" here in this VIRTUAL space of 0 and 1 or "switch-on" and/or "switch-off". That I do so as to alert my fellow "sojourners" who could now be in peril and the manipulators go into 'spiritualism" and the chanelling of the spirits of the DEAD... Other religions that have tried to fool with that before our "mental health" establishment, started to create "encyclopedias" of demons or "demonology"...

Baal is one such GOD/DEMON that means Master in one culture but Demon in the surrounding cultures. When the Master become the Political Power, there is "corruption" and the surrounding cultures are invaded anused for "money", labour, volunteerism, slavery, or just raw POWER to invade and operate in another culture, and not adhering to the laws of those states regarding our societal evolution over the centuries as we challenged the POWER of the DUALITY of STATE/RELIGION. .... con't

One example is "homosexuality"... They are protected in our secular legislation and our "charitable" and "tax-exempt" status is hinged on adhering to our "liberalism" toward the rights of "homosexuals". That is higher that the standards of the Master of SRCM and must be exposed and "opposed" until it is either recanted and recalled or the "tax-exempt" status under the umbrella of "Charity" is removed for this organization and this person. Directors in our "non-profit" societies are "accountable" for their words and actions. That should hold for other "nationals" who do business in our "nation". Even RELIGION and SPIRITUAL GROUPS are not immune to that FREEDOM anymore. The Media (us... the bloggers) are insisting that our "servants" address that "injustice" perpetrated by RELIGIOUS autocrats NOW...and YES, WE CAN!! We have the Shashwats of the world with their "techno skills"... WE can decide on the ISSUES in "initiatives" and vote on the issues "online" in "dynamic" (on-going) processes.

That is the new "economy" which must include the "virtual" world of technology as a repository of our "economies" which originate as a negative or a "minus" -3, -2, -1, 0, +1,+3,+3,+4,+5,+6,+7,+ for an octave (spectrum of light and sound).

I understand that we, the older generation, can't live in the house of tomorrow, but we can empower the "youth" and the next generation to use their skills to create a BETTER and not so "DIVISIVE" world that the SPIRITUALITY of SAHAJ MARG has created in my WORLD and my LIFE.

Now I will expose it until it changes... not me, but Shashwat, my sons, and other "adherents" to a philosophy of LOGIC and INTELLECT as a complement to FAITH, and BELIEF... and not in OPPOSITION or DIVIDING with such RELIGIO/SPIRITUALISM or "pseudo-spirituality".... Shashwat's and my life were 'negatively" impacted by Sahaj marg and its creation, specially Chari but not just Chari... Babuji has some "explaining to do, but he is humble so we'll believe his "good intention"... we already do... cont'

Before I started this process, I communicated often with Babuji to check his "feeling"... and it was always a smile... I also checked with other deceased members Sahaj mag when Chari became "BOSS", and they also "SMILED"... So I thanked them and now I just ask NATURE and the ONE... and until I get a different approach from SRCM that they will UNITE and stop the BS, then I WILL POINT AT THEM and their ACTIONS and their WORDS, so the rest of the SEEKERS will not be "ENDANGERED" by the dangeous games of "neophytes" in the SPIRITUALITY games...

We are all attached to our EMOTIONS and to our INTELLECT and to vilify the one that makes us "moral" and sensible" is not a "GOOD IDEA"... And it is not the HEART...
Our secular laws are loftier that the "developer's", no tomorrow, attitude that our children don't swallow any more... The "END OF THE WORLD" does the same for them that "THE BOMB" did for us... it stresses us and we become "rebels" or we become "ruthless" and "profiteers" and "egotistical"... If we can't be rich, we'll become famous, and why not the MASTER OF THE UNIVERSE... Developers playing at RELIGION and not being too careful of the "environment" and the "psyche" of others, let alone the silly SPIRITUALISM.... Where is HOUDINI to debunk these Charlatans?

Thanks for reading it.... You're crazier than me... I just write this stuff... I never read it... lol ;-)) I am Acadian and we "joke" You gotta laugh, b'cause It AIN'T funny...

NOW I'll go talk to the flowers and my dog... and you will be "indoors, in your "mind" or "virtual" space, and I will be in contact with the SPIRIT of FLOWER and DOG and NATURE...STARS, GALAXIES, etc...UNIVERSE, ONE...ZERO.... MINUS ONE... Wow..What an '"achievement".... And I never saw my NAVEL once... or my "heart"...or my MIND... Or MY SPIRIT but the ONE....and the ZERO...and the MINUS ONE...

Yes we can...

AMEN...

Cyril Borg...

jogarao

Dear Brother,
I could understand your objective very clearly.Yes! It is the responsibilty of every sane person to ascertain whether he is on the right track or there is any curvature .

I feel sorry for the plight of those who fell into the hands of unscrupulous fellows and wriggling to get out of their influence. But one need not continue to suffer any more the moment they realise that they are being exploited because of their innoscence.Let them take a bold step and come out of their clutches if they feel suffocated as a result.

The purpose of this practice is to get rid of all complexities and become transparent and fearless to anything that interferes with self and keep the final objective of returning back to orignality which is simple, pure and perfect. our personal experience itself hints at that condition to reach. One needs to be selfish to the extent of his practice and be careful about any exploitation in the name of Master or Guru and immediately dis connect himself to avoid further exploitation.

May god bless all those who crave such freedom ,and grace them with all necessary strength,and health till they achiebve their objective

Shashwat

The purpose of this practice is to get rid of all complexities and become transparent and fearless to anything that interferes with self and keep the final objective of returning back to orignality which is simple, pure and perfect


We are yet to discuss the practice, as of now, in this thread, we are discussing how in the world Ram Chandra Saxena is related to Lalaji???

Dear Jagorao, you have not yet replied to this question which we are trying to find an answer.....

Practice can be good or bad, we have discussed this before and will discuss it again and again and again till our logic is not satisfied. because you propagate this practice, hence you are responsible and answerable to society at large, we all are if we decide to get public with our views...

more or less we have reached this conclusion that babuji was not directly related to lalaji, but made up this story and "imagined" that he is representative of lalaji... if this is true then we can move to the next aspect which is practice.

Lets gather enough courage to face the truth, we all have at some point in our life encountered a poem by Rudyard kipling "IF"

If you can make one heap of all your winnings
And risk it on one turn of pitch-and-toss,
And lose, and start again at your beginnings
And never breath a word about your loss;

........
Yours is the Earth and everything that's in it,
And - which is more - you'll be a Man my son!

This is the attitude we need to have when we seek the truth.

Dear jagorao, are you at the age of 63 yrs and a life long association with sahaj marg, imagining transmission from babuji, willing to risk this association and accept the truth that babuji "made up" his association with lalaji and at best was a madman?

If you can may be you can realize the truth and it will help you a long way in reaching the goal which was in your mind when you took this path of sahaj marg, start over again, forget sahaj marg, seek the truth do not imagine truth.

Feb 12

cyril

I would say that the goal of SRCM to "remove complexities" has not been reached as the complexities in the Lalaji to Babuji LINEAGE is very COMPLEX and seems to lack in "honesty" and honour...

To claim to represent someone who has two organization already, Ramashram, and Naqshbandiyaa (NaqshMuMRa), from a dream is not very "removing complexities" from LIFE of the adherents but is "complicating" their existence.

I believe that Babuji seemed humble and we can forgive him a lot because of this appearance of humility from there to claim that this person can save on or erase one's samskaras is stretching credibility. But all are FREE to do whatever they want to ...

But in a conversation such as this, one has to make sense, be logical and stick to the subject at hand and not forever repeat the same "company line" about the MASTER, the METHOD and the MISSION, ignoring the founder's actions, , his foundation and the philosophy and the words that are spoken to lure others to this crumbling and divided structure.

NO one will save anyone ... If we believed that, then we should then follow someone who says they are a Messiah, a GOD (if there is ONE) or at the very least, the SON of this GOD and not simple a "SPECIAL PERSONALITY" or a MASTER ... or a GURU. One follows a guru to learn his skill or art. Removing complexities is not something that Ram Chandra is or his organization, and/or Chari are " MASTERS" at.

We just want to conclude that Babuji did not follow the RAmashram of Dr. Chatterbhuj or the NaqshMuMra for "political" reasons. Islam? Sufi? Not Hindu enough? There are no other reasons... specially that they try to make it a "Raja Yoga" rather than a SUFI path... And then to deny the Sufi path of Lalaji is almost a "complex" insult to Lalaji and his lineage.

Cyril Borg....

jogarao

//Dear jagorao, are you at the age of 63 yrs and a life long association with sahaj marg, imagining transmission from babuji, willing to risk this association and accept the truth that babuji "made up" his association with lalaji and at best was a madman?

If you can may be you can realize the truth and it will help you a long way in reaching the goal which was in your mind when you took this path of sahaj marg, start over again, forget sahaj marg, seek the truth do not imagine truth. //

Well dear brother,
My experience so far made me to conclude that Iam On right path but Iam not able to do justice to my practice because I feel contented with my progress so far.Yes! Even Swami Ramakrishna pramahamsa was misunderstood as mad man by people but only Swami Vivekanand could catch up with the spiritual greatness of Ramakrishna pramamahamsa and the rest is known to all .Spritual practice is such a method in which one need to taste the condition and then he practically becomes mad after that experience and hence appear so. Even the preceptor who introduced me to this system of practice appeared to me as a mad man in the beginning but after my close association with him I realised his capability as a preceptor.
He was a pracicing Doctor(Eye specialist) and he nerrated this following incident.
Once in 1965 he happend to see the photo of babuji and being an eye specialist he realised immediately that Babuji is really a spiritual oriented person and he can be trusted.What he saw in that photo is the eye balls were in the etreme opposit corners of the eyes . This kind of vision is normally seen either in a dead person or a highly spiritually elevated person .Babuji used to be in that living dead condition and I could visualise that condition only after my encounter with this doctor who really helped me to understand this system during my association with him for 5 years till his end in 1995.This is not only my experience alone but every one who entered this practice under his guidance as preceptor. (to be contd)

jogarao

It is not imagination but real experience and I have no regrets about it. What more evidence you need that such a good number of followers of this system through Babuji have sacrificed their lives to spread this system among scores of common people like me and how can I be a silent spectator when some vested interests are exploiting serious seekers like you?

No doubt that the simplicity of this system of practice itself is the veil on its reality as most of us are accustomed to complicated situations but never exposed to simple realities like simple living and high thinking which is the basic quality of a true human being and are we fit enough to be termed asHuman beings in that sense? Babuji said we try to pick a pin on the ground using a crane, instead of our own hands and act likewise when confronted with problems of life and living.

Our complicated thinking made us to suspect any strange experience with the result that we suspect first and believe in any thing only with experience otherwise and drag on it till we lose patience and feel frustrated.

We need to live like a swan which floats in the water but will not bear even a drop on its body once come out of the water. we have to learn to live on daily basis concerned with the present without brooding over bitter past or dreaming about un ripe future.We can do anythinhg now only for it is in our hands as otherwise we lose this opportunity for life once this moment is gone into the oblivion.My sincere suggestion if you care to follow is continue your search for right guru for you leaving behind unpleasant situations and people for nature to take its own course on them and be selfish to gain that rare spiritual experience but caution those who are still wriggling with suffocation to lead a life full of peace, calmness and tranqulity.Since Iam benefitted much with this system , I feel that as many people as possible get benefitted so that we can form into a community above religion, caste or colour for a society with equality and unity as its base.

Shashwat

Giving credit is one thing, which is acceptable and something honorable as well, but claiming "exclusive" successor-ship is a fraud.

We have a letter from Ram chandra saxena, published by family members of lalaji which states that babuji modified the system proposed by lalaji, to make it more politically correct, if we take the letter from babuji in 1963, claims of other linage's of lalaji and babuji's own admission, we can safely conclude that:-


Ramchandra Saxena alias "babuji" was not an appointed representative of lalaji, but was one of his admirer's

This will then seal the position of Parthasarthi Rajagopalachari as a liar, manipulator, cunning beast, disguised as human, for the statement he made

Lalaji Maharaj, whose birth anniversary we are celebrating today has ordained–it was not merely an expression of his wishes–has ordained that abhyasis should marry amongst each other

http: //www. srcm. org/literature/recent. speeches/070202_Tiruppur. jsp

How can lalaji order such a thing? is this not fooling people? how many marriages were arranged by Ramchandra Saxena? because it was him who use to communicate with lalaji "in his dreams".

Given the fact that we know, from babuji himself, that he did not meet lalaji more then 2-3 times, it is insane to assume that lalaji appointed him as his representative, babuji claims so, or accepted lalaji as his Guru is another thing, and has no logical value. Anyone can claim anything, and we all are free to interpret it according to our own understanding. But such claims should be presented as they are... it is again insane to assume that lalaji ordered babuji to modify his method and make it more "politically correct", if this was lalaji's intention, he would have done it himself.

So i hope we have agreed to this that lalaji was not babuji's guru, but it was babuji who assumed this.

We can move to next topic, if this is agreeable to everyone in this forum.

We will discuss the points raised by you in the thread you have started, points i am interested in, which you have raised are:-

1. My experience so far made me to conclude that Iam On right path

2. Even Swami Ramakrishna pramahamsa was misunderstood as mad man by people

3. 1965 he happend to see the photo of babuji and being an eye specialist he realised immediately that Babuji is really a spiritual oriented person

4. What more evidence you need that such a good number of followers of this system

5. No doubt that the simplicity of this system of practice itself is the veil on its reality

6. Babuji said we try to pick a pin on the ground using a crane, instead of our own hands and act likewise when confronted with problems of life and living.

7. My sincere suggestion if you care to follow is continue your search for right guru for you leaving behind unpleasant situations and people for nature to take its own course on them


I broadly agree with rest of your statement, these points which i have pointed out are of spacial interest to me, and am looking forward to discuss these aspects with you, and allow me to clarify as why i want to keep these discussion in separate threads.

It is for three reasons:-

1. Readability gets lot easier and any person who is reading this thread is not tossed off topic, and can come to the conclusion regarding the topic we are discussing.

2. All these discussion will be published again on internet in form of pdf so that those who are not on orkut also get a change to read the particular topic without breaks and need to refer to different topic off orkut.

3. These discussion will form a large database of information regarding the topics we are discussing for those who are seeking information.

We have a confirmation from Kasturi Chaturvedi, wherein people associated with her have accepted that lalaji is not at all related to babuji and his sahaj marg, this is what we have been saying for quite some time, we were able to demonstrate the same with evidence, it is good to see that there are some people who are still somewhat honest, and accept the faults done by others and agree that which is evident and do not block their thinking in mindless obsession of associating lalaji with sahaj marg, just because a jerk claims that it is an order from lalaji that members of his cult must marry each other!!

here is what panditji a close associate and de-facto public relation officer of kasturi chaturvedi has to say about lalaji's association with sahaj marg.

also few more thing i would like to tell
Sri Ram chandra's mission is babuji's mission and started by babuji not by lalaji, lalaji had sant mat which is still there in fatehgarh ..

Now the same question arises again, people following babuji say it clearly that lalaji is not associated with sahaj marg, chari say's that it is an order from lalaji that abhyasis should marry each other!!

When lalaji is not associated with what Chari is propagating, how come they follow orders from lalaji and those who are directly propagating teachings of lalaji, have no clue as when this order was made!!

This makes it clear enough that Chari is a cunning manipulator who does not hesitate to fool people, lies are on his tong, if he opens his mouth, he will speak lie.

Alas there are people who believe that such a person is spiritual, is calling Parthasarthi Rajagopalachari as spiritual not an insult to this term, spiritual??

It is very important that we all should know that Chari is fooling people in name of spirituality, his deeds and lies must be exposed and presented to public for scrutiny.

I urge people to open their minds and see deeds as they are, and not with a closed mind, which only listens to voice of their master.

panditji comments can be found here http: // kasturibhenji. blogspot. com , check the comment section, comment number 159.

Additional comments about the same topic but made elsewhere

Shashwat said (here) :

Elodie,

If we have to find the truth of SRCM, we will have to focus on 1945, when SRCM was formulated.

This area of history is somewhat clear as not much contradictory statements are made by any of clans, they all say "Lalaji appointed babuji as his representative" is this is the truth?

Answer is clearly NO Lalaji did not appointed babuji as his successor. babuji had a dream, and appointed himself as lalaji's representative..

Wrong starts from there, SRCM and sahaj marg is based on this lie.. how can SRCM and sahaj marg lead to truth when it is based on a lie??

We need not explore what happened in 1982-83 as only lies and manipulation happened at that time, and it happened because sahaj marg was based in these very lies and manipulation.

Concept of sahaj marg is fundamentally wrong, we will see more such segmentation of SRCM in near future and then the future victims of sahaj marg will analyze what happened in 2011-12 (say!!). Such analysis will not lead to truth, if we have to find the truth of sahaj marg we will have to analyze the roots of sahaj marg.

And my analysis indicates, its illusion, hallucination, mental diseases, madness and psychological illness which are the foundation of Sahaj marg, and this analysis is supported by what is evident clearly today, the outcome of sahaj marg, madness, mental illness and hallucination.

Here is the proof of what i say:-

mental diseases Hallucination, madness and psychological illness